Is this a natural Discus?

bjornik
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Re: Is this a natural Discus?

Post by bjornik » 10 Jul 2008, 22:57

Heiko Bleher wrote:Dear Bjørn Johan Kirksæther,

sorry again the late answer, but I am so busy, for lectures and also my two remote Amazon expeditions in a few days...are you coming?

All the best

Heiko

Thank you very much Heiko!

For the moment it is not possible for me to leave Norway. My wife and her children are Russian. My wife has permission to stay in Norway but this permission is not yet give to the children. They are only 8 and 5 and need me all the time and if they need it will be forever. For the moment I struggle the fight of my life lifetime to secure the children’s and my family future in Norway.

Reading your book and to see my wild discus and to breeding discus is the best relaxation I have in this time. Some time I am very stressed and this see and feel the wild discus and swim away when I coming to the glass. When I site down and looking on them and begin to talk with them they are coming to the glass and show me there beautiful colours and pattern. Then I feel the harmony from this beautiful animals and I begin to relax and then a see the beautiful nature in them. In my mind I begin to have a fantasy to see them in the nature, then your book is giving me so good inspiration to correct the picture of there habitat and way they live in the nature. I hope it will be possible to learn my small children also to see this beautiful animals and the beautiful nature you show us in your book in this way some day.

Your book is more then a book about beautiful fishes and there habitats, it also describe a nature how blending the reader and I know I have to teach my children to love and give contribution to take care of this beautiful nature. This is also the vision your book also gives me. Then why I think it is not possible for others to write a book like this. It is written by human how loves and have lived with the nature and the animals in it for the most of his life. I feel that your soul is a part of this book and that’s why is so interesting to read, it is also a documentation of the life of the explorer and his offspring.

When I read your book I begin to ask my self more and more questions. I ask you and you give me answer, this is a great experience and inspiration for me. You are relay a great human and it is a big pleasure to have your answer. Thank you very much Heiko.

Best wishes from Norway

Bjørn Johan Kirksæther
Den naturlige Discus
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bjornik
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Re: Is this a natural Discus?

Post by bjornik » 18 Jul 2008, 13:22

Heiko Bleher wrote: Anyhow, almost all of the tank breed variants in the hobby around the world and those mutants are from S. haraldi, very few (only the red spotted) are from S. aequifasciatus and practically none is from S. discus – except the so called Heckel-cross and all Asian so called S. discus are from Heckel-cross or just wild blues. All the best

Heiko
Hello again Heiko!

Is it possible to disturbed you again with a question?

In your book you write if I understand correct that crossing other strains of discus with S. discus will give problem with the offspring F1 to F4 and after this not possible to get new generations because of the genetic difference between S. discus and S. haraldi/S. aequifasciatus. Have I understand correct?
"This Asian so called S. discus are from Heckel-cross." you say. What type of cross is this? Is this cross between S. discus and S.haraldi - blue type?

Best wishes from Norway

Bjørn Johan Kirksæther
Den naturlige Discus
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Heiko Bleher
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Re: Is this a natural Discus?

Post by Heiko Bleher » 18 Sep 2008, 23:55

Hi Bjørn Johan Kirksæther,

sorry for the late answer but i am working around the clock to pick up what as been left behind for 6 weeks...and the Brazilian expeditions and problems...
See also http://www.aquapress-blehr.com

You are correct and you have read my book very well. It is is exactly as you say, these are my results from decades of research, breeding and being, as well as visiting, breeders worldwide (much more and I I know about breeding in volume two...coming up next year).

All the very best and I hope to see you in Duisburg,

always

Heiko

bjornik
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Re: Is this a natural Discus?

Post by bjornik » 19 Sep 2008, 08:08

Heiko Bleher wrote:Hi Bjørn Johan Kirksæther,

sorry for the late answer but i am working around the clock to pick up what as been left behind for 6 weeks...and the Brazilian expeditions and problems...
See also http://www.aquapress-blehr.com

You are correct and you have read my book very well. It is is exactly as you say, these are my results from decades of research, breeding and being, as well as visiting, breeders worldwide (much more and I I know about breeding in volume two...coming up next year).

All the very best and I hope to see you in Duisburg,

always

Heiko
Thank you very much Heiko!
It is very good to have Natasha and you back in Europe. You two and your work are very important for many people and the scientific aquatic world. Thank you very much for what you are doing for all of us.

It would have been a great pleasure to go to Duisburg, but I have to stay in Norway because of the situation for my Russian children and family against the Norwegian authorities.

Best wishes from Norway.

Bjørn Johan Kirksæther
Den naturlige Discus
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Heiko Bleher
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Re: Is this a natural Discus?

Post by Heiko Bleher » 08 Oct 2008, 20:40

Dear Bjørn Johan Kirksæther,

I am just back from Duisburg and soon natasha will place some text and photos of the 4 biotopes I made and also about the 7th International Discus Championships.

I am really sorry about your problem with the authorities, it is really similar to some of the problems I have in Brazil with the Policia Federal. Authorities seem to be as uncomprensible in many parts of the world... One can hardly understand this (I cannot...). But it makes me very happy that you can find relaxation in your nice fishes and reading my book, that is fantastic... and I am sure one day you will come with me collecting...

Keep up the good work and do NOT let yourself down, if the Brazilian authorities were unable to do it with me (I guess you have read on my website THE FACTS) the Norwegians should not be able to do it with you...

Kindest regards and thanks again,

always

Heiko

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gep
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Re: Is this a natural Discus?

Post by gep » 08 Oct 2008, 21:49

I Really look forward to the volume 2, volume 1 is great, but still fore me it leaves a few questions and i really hope i can get the answers in the next volume. :2tubsup:

bjornik
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Re: Is this a natural Discus?

Post by bjornik » 14 Oct 2008, 22:18

Heiko Bleher wrote:Dear Bjørn Johan Kirksæther,

I am just back from Duisburg and soon natasha will place some text and photos of the 4 biotopes I made and also about the 7th International Discus Championships.

I am really sorry about your problem with the authorities, it is really similar to some of the problems I have in Brazil with the Policia Federal. Authorities seem to be as uncomprensible in many parts of the world... One can hardly understand this (I cannot...). But it makes me very happy that you can find relaxation in your nice fishes and reading my book, that is fantastic... and I am sure one day you will come with me collecting...

Keep up the good work and do NOT let yourself down, if the Brazilian authorities were unable to do it with me (I guess you have read on my website THE FACTS) the Norwegians should not be able to do it with you...

Kindest regards and thanks again,


always

Heiko
Thank you very much Heiko for the good words, in a difficult time for my family and me !

Also I am looking very much to your second book. I think it will give very good information about the Discus as aquarium fish since the beginning.
We need a book like this. It is hard to get a clear information what happen with the Discus as a spice since begin of develop of this new, what I feel and see very much ugly mutants and variants.
I am very conservative; it is only the natural Discus I truly like. But I am very interested to learn about how they develop this mutants and variants. Some I know but it is difficult to see the true information in the big lines in this information. It is very easy to suspect use of hormones and also gen-manipulation in this picture whis I was thinking about with the early mutation of yellow PigeonBlood variant.
Then you show me in Book I in page 195 - first picture a yellow variant of S.haraldi from lower parts of Xingü. I don’t believe what I was seeing, but you show me information so I have to change all my thinking about what I have believed about how they have developed this mutant and variants. It was realy a natural yellow Discus. Earlier you have give information that the most of this mutants and variant made by human have it’s origin in variants of S. haraldi.
Then I ask myself, is it possible to see what types of variant they have use in the developing of a variant in the youngster from a mutation and variant couple?
I have got at big red-turquoise couple to look in to this. I got only a small number of youngsters the first time. But I was seeing youngster with 11 bars so I think it will be possible to see more if I get a breed of more then 100 youngster. I am also breeding youngster from black scalare to look in to this. I got about 100 youngsters 45% is black and rest is mosaic of black/white. Looking in to this genetic issue is interesting to see if it possible to see some link to the origin. The black scalare show me nothing, but I will work some with this on mutation and variants of Discus. I am also interesting to look in to the problem of fertility and grow of youngster. 12 years ago it was none problem of my Discus with this, but now I have seen this with variants I have got the last 2 years. I ask myself have I done some think wrong or is it some problem the genetic quality of the Discus mutant or variant I got. That’s why this big red-turquoise couple I got is so interesting for me. Have they good genetic quality? Are they beef heart ox’s? How close are they to the natural offspring? This type of question I ask me when I have seen slow grow rate of youngster of an other couple I have of S. haraldi. Have I done some wrong, or is this a proof of bad genetic quality of this couple.
I am looking very much to your second book. I hope I find very much new information like I find in your first book.

Thank you very much Heiko for what are doing for all of us!

Best regards from Norway

Bjørn Johan Kirksæther
Den naturlige Discus
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Heiko Bleher
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Re: Is this a natural Discus?

Post by Heiko Bleher » 03 Nov 2008, 04:03

Dear Bjørn Johan Kirksæther,

thanks again for your kind words and I wish you and your family with my heart all the very best.

I see you are very interested in the genetics and what you experience is what it is all about, but often people do not want to believe it. Every single mutant I have seen so far, i am able to trace back to nature, to the wild. I had already done this with y book DISCUS by Heiko Bleher and Manfred Goebel, 1992. which is still a standard for that kind of identification worldwide. Every one I traced back, and also in my volume iI I compile and show it.

Yes this extreme yellow variant is from the lower Xingu, unfortunately almost no one catches there these days.. not any more.

Again, thanks and all the best with your breeding and keep up the gooooood work,

always

Heiko Bleher
http://www.aquapress-bleehr.com
http://www.aqua-aquapress.com

PS: many new "Lates news" information on my site, and much more to come next week

bjornik
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Re: Is this a natural Discus?

Post by bjornik » 03 Nov 2008, 16:46

Hello Heiko!

Thank you very much for your good words.

I am also working with S. haraldi from Lago Jaraquituba. I buy 7 of them from Stendker in Germany only 5 cm long summer of 2006, they was F1. They were looking like ordinary brown discus when I got them. Today I have 3 left, on male and to females. Male have this Alfa colors and pattern and the female how is in couple with this male have strong red to rose-colored and yellow. One of the other males was very ordinary in colors like the other single female. They start to breeding in January this year. In the spring they were breeding again and the result was only few youngsters how I have sold. Last week I was and looking on them, they were about 7 cm and begin to get colors and pattern. One of them looks to get the look of an Alfa animal.
0002lite.jpg
0003lite.jpg
Now I have a breeding with about 40 youngster of this variant. They are about 4 months and about 5 cm long. All this I am going to keep seeing what color and pattern they get. I am very interesting to see the spreading in there looking and to see if there are some Alfa animals in the pack. I have seen in pictures other places that it is also semi types of males in this variant. So I look very much to see what I get.
So this is also one of the big secret with this discus spices? The way they look in colors and pattern in a pack signalized the Alfa male or males the predators see first and try to chats. Have I understand correct?

In your book you have also beautiful drawings of discus pack in the river. It is the first time someone have given me information about Alfa animals in the discus pack. What you write in your book and what I see in my aquarium is a very strong experience with this beautiful discus.

I beginning also to understand that it can be very much difference in the colors and pattern also of the others spices of discus and not only S. haraldi.
I want to ask, if someone buy only strong blue head heckle, S.discus, is it only male they got? I have hear that the females of this heckle variant may be more brown to grey than the blue head male. Is this correct?

This fish, the Discus is much more fascinating for me now when I beginning to see more clearly the fact you show use all.

Best regards from Norway.

Bjørn Johan Kirksæther
Den naturlige Discus
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Heiko Bleher
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Re: Is this a natural Discus?

Post by Heiko Bleher » 11 Jan 2009, 00:59

Hello,

a very healthy and happy new year and thanthings improve this year (they have to...).

Sorry again. I am working every day and night to compile as well volume II as vol. I, therfore have little time.
The bright blue colour in "blue-headed" Heckel-discus or those full-body-coloured ones I found in the Rio Nhamundá, I think is not (as in all alpha animals) limited to males. I wrote already in my volume I that my observations is, that also females can have such bright colours. With Schmidt-Focke we had it several times, that the brightest colours was in a female...

The colours in some populations are amazing, as those mentioned in the Nhamundá or those you referre to in the lower Xingú (and only in one part, as in the area below Vitoria do Xingú they are real brown, you can also see on page 241 - actually the same as the one collected by the Thayer-Expediion in 1865...).

You have some real nice discus there, and specially the beautiful high fin, this is for instance a character (you will see well and explained) at one time Schmidt-Focke developed further by constant selection.

Keep up the great work, and again all the ver best

always

Heiko Bleher
http://www.aquapress-bleher.com

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