Infection(s)

[Andrew Soh]

Yoyo wrote:

Can you cure a fish that hasent eat for mounts?

Didn't eat for months?...Should be dead by then...ha!ha!ha!

O.K. jokes aside.....Yes, you can try by putting medication in the water and allow it to be absorbed into the body.

But adding medication in water and in feed is a better option

Take care,
Andrew

[Matte_g]

Hi Stan and all concerned with disease problems.

Treatment of internal infection or eliminating endoparasites is a long story....but will try to make it short.

In treatment, we should start from the external....and one treatment that should be able to eliminate all is either Potassium permaganate or Hydrogen Peroxide. When used separately, they have quite similar action but when mixed together, Hydrogen Peroxide neutralises PP .

PP or HP will eliminate 99% of living organisms in the water and that includes the ectoparasites on the external surface of the fish....whether they are bacteria or protozoan or micro-worms. But what is underneath the scale (hiding between the scales and the epidermis)....we need periodic treatment to lower down the count....very hard to eliminate all.

Having done 3 to 4 times of PP or HP treatment within a week and if we still find that the discus is dull...or dark....or colour-tone switching from light to dark and to light and then to dark again.......or that slimy white patches on the body is still around....it might be endoparasite at work......and for the first...could be endoparasites in the gut or bloodstream or other organs inside the body and for the last...the slimy patches....could be infection on the epidermis layer if PP treatment had already be done.

In other words, if the patches goes off after PP or HP treatment...it simply means the excessive slime production was caused by irritation from ectoparasite.
If the patches stay, it is probably irritation of the epidermis caused by endoparasite...likely bacteria in the epidermis layer....

Now, after the PP pr HP tretment, the problem still presist.....there is nothing much we can do except to de-flegallete the fish and addition of antibiotics. So the choice is metronidazole and fucin (or other broad spectrum antibiotics) and soak in water and add in feed for the next 12 days.

Tha is the best you could do. We should not use any drugs that is effective against worms at large or vaccine against virus. This is because worms...like nematodes (round worms), flatworms and the rest are not truely parasitic. Even if there are round worms and flatworms (tapeworm).....the discus will still eat and thrive.....and only when the there are unaccountable amount in the gut ...that they will cause contipation and discus will die within a few days with a swallow belly (But remember that not all swallon belly is due to this).

If the discus doesn't eat....for a long period (for months)...slowly starving to death, it is definitely an endoparasite infection....and could be any part or organ within....depending on what you have fed them for the past months. Could it be worms...frozen bloodworms....toxic colour-enhancer......?

Or could the cause be innoculated into your tanks with the introduction of new discus from other sources that may be infectious?

Take care,
Andrew

Great post Andrew.

"Having done 3 to 4 times of PP or HP treatment within a week"

How many PPM do you recommend when using PP.

//Matte_g

[Andrew Soh]

Potassium Permaganate treatment:

2mg to 1 litre of water. Since PP is not expensive and not everyone has a micro-weighting machine, create stock solution by using an empty mineral water bottle of 1.5 litre holding capacity. Weigh 3gms in a small tub or cup (that would be much easier. After that, add water to the cup and pour slowly into the mineral water bottle. Repeat pouring water into the cup and then pour the PP solution in the cup into the bottle. Repeat this till all the PP is off the cup. Do not fill the mineral water bottle to full. When it is about half-filled, put back the cover(cap) and shake till all PP is dissolved. Once you affirm to that, fill the mineral water to the 1.5 litre mark. So for every 100 litre of fish water, you add 100ml from this stock-solution. That will give you 0.2gm per 100 litre of water concentration. The balance you can keep for one to two weeks...but not too long.

Don't mix or put formalin near to dry PP...you might just get an explosion...and you think it is the work of terrorists!!!

During treatment, maintain pH below 7...best to be 6 to 6.5. The more alkaline the water...the more toxic PP becomes.

After 24 hours, remove all PP from tank. In other words, after 24 hours, clean tank and make 100% water-change.

Best to have alternate-day treatment.....either a gap of one day or two days.

Potassium Permaganate is a good first defense prophylactic treatment dye.

Take care,
Andrew

[stanchung]

Thanks Andrew for your detailed reply.

[tonysdiskus]

Potassium Permaganate treatment:

2mg to 1 litre of water. Since PP is not expensive and not everyone has a micro-weighting machine, create stock solution by using an empty mineral water bottle of 1.5 litre holding capacity. Weigh 3gms in a small tub or cup (that would be much easier. After that, add water to the cup and pour slowly into the mineral water bottle. Repeat pouring water into the cup and then pour the PP solution in the cup into the bottle. Repeat this till all the PP is off the cup. Do not fill the mineral water bottle to full. When it is about half-filled, put back the cover(cap) and shake till all PP is dissolved. Once you affirm to that, fill the mineral water to the 1.5 litre mark. So for every 100 litre of fish water, you add 100ml from this stock-solution. That will give you 0.2gm per 100 litre of water concentration. The balance you can keep for one to two weeks...but not too long.

Don't mix or put formalin near to dry PP...you might just get an explosion...and you think it is the work of terrorists!!!

During treatment, maintain pH below 7...best to be 6 to 6.5. The more alkaline the water...the more toxic PP becomes.

After 24 hours, remove all PP from tank. In other words, after 24 hours, clean tank and make 100% water-change.

Best to have alternate-day treatment.....either a gap of one day or two days.

Potassium Permaganate is a good first defense prophylactic treatment dye.

Take care,
Andrew

Oh Jisses !!
It must be very strongs medication when you only use 0,2g /100 liter.I remeber when i used Neguvon (masoten) for about 10 years ago.It was also very toxic and I only used 30mg/100 liter.But its now forbidden .

I have never used PP and HP whitch is best , PP or HP?

It must be very useful for comercial breeders.I think if they got an epedemi or something like that and must cure lots of water and fishes.

Is it dangerous to overdose?

You said if the ph is lower its much more toxic.My second thougt then is to reduce the consentration in the tank or,,,, can it be dangerous for the fish ??

Ok one more question.What is the different betwen PP and HP.

Its nice to have proffessional breeder/lerner here .Thanks Andrew

[stanchung]

Let me answer this if Andrw hasn't seen it. Both are very strong oxidizing agents. Some of the most powerful. Oxidizing agents work by 'exploding' small biological organisms, bacteria, protozoa, virus, eating their cell walls if I remember correctly.

Because they are oxidizing agents, they will lose their potency very quickly when exposed.
PP IMHO is popular because you can see the degradation by the change in colour from a fresh colour to a dull reddish brown. The more organic matter, the faster this happens, so it's good to do a WC + scrubdown before treating with PP. Use aged water that doesn't have residue anti-chlorine in it or the anti-chlorine will react with PP and render it useless.

With HP there's nothing to see except lots of air bubbles on the sides of the aquarium and you can't tell if it's done. It's usually sold in liquid form and it doesn't store for long time unlike PP crystals that can be kept for a long time when stored away in dark airtight container.

HP is colourless and PP is purple and stains everything! If you see breeders with brown patches on their fingers then you know!

[Andrew Soh]

Thanks Stan,

See you next week.

Tony...don't worry too much. It is not whether the quantity is little means it is more toxic...no... That dose is effective against microorganism.

As you mentioned...masoten is pretty safe too...if used correctly and in the right dose. Masoten must be fresh to be effective and the dose that is safe is 150mg to 100litre of water... In my opinion, 30mg to 100 litre water is too little and ineffective against protozoans and worms.

Different drugs work under different condition to be active...thus PP should be admin below pH7 and Masoten must be fresh stock.

When you work with drugs and chemicals within the guideline...they are very safe.

Take care,
Andrew

[tonysdiskus]

Thanks for all information :) :)

[Gajowa]

Hi
I have a question regarding "crazy swimmig".
Have you got any idea what causes this, when fish sudenly began swimming with the speed of light? usualy fish dies within three days. It happened to me with 4 wild discus and 1 domesticated variety (snow white). When fish go "crazy" it displays very vivid colors and all stres bars and the fins are streched.
Have you met with this?

Barbara

[Andrew Soh]

Barbara,

First let me state that fishes with this syndrome are usually or have been fed with live feed....like fresh bloodworms, fresh tubiflex worms or fresh blackworms in the present or in the past.

Beside the above, another route of infestation is getting the discus from seller that already harbour this...be it domesticated or wild.

The parasite that causes this is a blood flagellate known as the trypanosoma or the cryptobia. These flagellates cause the discus to be lethargic and they dash at high speed and then at times, spiral around it's axis and is non-responsive to touch. Finally, that discus will die in a day or two.

The treatment is 'Gabbrocol' ....a treatment for bird-flagellates.

Another similar symptom is when a seemingly healthy discus eating well a day before suddenly started swimming lethargically on the surface and then dash suddenly at will.......and during the final stage.....stays at the top with no change in colour and within the day...dies off. This is usually a viral infection.

Hope that helps.

Andrew Soh